Traveller-digest           Thursday, 18 July 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 266

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Realism
         2. RE:Pop culture
         3. Re: Fighters in Space
         4. Re: Pop culture
         5. Re: Culture and Realism 
         6. TRTOOLS enhancements
         7. How the Imperium REALLY fell...Long and Cranky
         8. jump grid failure and dialect
         9. Meson Screens.
        10. Re: Realism
        11. Ducted Fan Vehicles and FFS
        12. Re: Realism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Kestner <pjwk@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 00:59:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Realism

>On 16 jul 1996, Stu spewed:

>> THe only real problems with an interplanetary mission are engineering
>> details, no new technologies are needed.  For that matter, we have designs
>> *now* for a huge .1C craft using nuclear detonation for thrust....no
>> kidding.  The project was called Orion I believe.

>Yeah, but who wants to volunteer for that mission...  :-)
>
>Stu



(in high pitched frantic voice with much arm waving)
"  ME... ME... ME... SEND ME !"

My further thoughts on the discution thread...

Reguardless of the tech level, I think that the biggest 'problem' is a cheap
'earth-to-orbit' means.   Once in orbit, it is low cost but time consuming
to go where ever you want to.  The long transit times, at the lower tech
levels, should not be a hinderance to growth.   Look at 15th thru 17th
century travel to the far east from europe.  With travel times of 2-3 years
round trip, spain built an empire.
(and they didn't have 'nintendo' games to pass the time.)
(and we can make in-system phone/lasercom calls home.)

Once a society developes routine use of local plantary space, sprawling
across the solar system would only be halted by unlikely situations such as:
  no where to go -- (you are at the only planet in the system, drat the luck.)
  enemy action -- (those nasty Martians, they don't want to share the system.)
  religious doctrine -- (God said he would come back to Earth, to take everyone
                         to heaven, you don't want to be off visiting Jupiter
                         when this happens, do you ???   If you answer yes,
                         we will toss you in the loony bin, so behave, or else.)
  idealogical indoctrination -- (out there cold, dark, dangerious....
                                 down here warm, well lit, safe...
                        If you perfer out there to down here, your crazy and
                        we will toss you in the loony bin, so behave, or else.)

The point I am trying to make is that the hurdel to be crossed is
"earth-to-orbit" travel on a routine basis. not some benchmark of
engineering design and/or fabrication capibility.   This viewpoint would
factor in such effects as the 'will-of-the people' to achive dispite the
costs, even with less then suitable tech level.  Or a society not so willing
to pay high costs, but with engineering solutions that are less costly
and/or safer.   This point of development may be crossed at tech level 7
thru 10 or even higher if one of the unlikely situations is present.
Paul Kestner  a.k.a.  pjwk@erols.com
parting remark: "The Devil hides in the details."


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:23:26 -0800
Subject: RE:Pop culture

On 17 Jul 96 at 19:28, Eris Reddoch spewed:

> Well OK, I'll admit to "Cheers"..even "The Beverly Hillbillies"..but
> not "Saved by the Bell!"
> 

I'm afraid that we must take responsibility for "Saved by the Bell."  
Then again, you can blame the Canadians for all those funny coins we 
get for change down here in Arizona... :-)

Ever try to put a Canadian dime into a coke machine???

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:23:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Fighters in Space

On 18 Jul 96 at 8:47, Roderick Darroch Elliott spewed:

> 
>         But wouldn't the Nimitz planing be a sight to see :)?
> 

Saw the Ranger once in port in San Diego...  Had friends who served 
on the Kitty Hawk and the Eisenhower...  As massive as the 
Supercarriers are, its a sight just to see one moored to the dock...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:23:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Pop culture

On 17 Jul 96 at 7:27, derek stanley spewed:

> Martian:
> "Something called, 'Baywatch.'"
> 
> Yes, Baywatch the high point of American TV culture.  And the brilliant 
> point of the show is it's people running, that's it they run, what more 
> do you want to see.
> 
> I always though this was a brilliant add.

I think it's a funny ad, but I'd like to think we've contributed a 
little more than that to world culture...

You could start with music, for one.  Virtually every major musical 
movement of the 20th century saw its origin in the US...  Ragtime, 
Jazz, Blues, Rock, etc...

I don't think things would be nearly as interesting without Hollywood...  
(OK, so the world could have probably lived without Friday the 13th, 
but still...)  :-)

Ironically enough, it says something about Baywatch that Canadian 
ad execs are commenting on it... not sure what it says about 
Canadians...they must be watching it if they find this funny... :-)

On the other hand, I have no illusions about the quality or total 
lack thereof in Baywatch... :-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:23:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Culture and Realism 

On 17 Jul 96 at 7:06, derek stanley spewed:

> > Suspect this one's already happened a time or two...
> > Look at the Vilani.  Who are the Vilani?  They're the Japanese, no one 
> comes right out an says it but they're our western stereotypical 
> Japanese.

Derek,

I'm not saying your wrong, but I don't think you could accuse the 
Japanese of the fear of technology and change so typical of the 
Vilani...

I can see the resemblances in cultural conservatism, but there is 
cultural conservatism to a greater or lesser extent in all cultures, 
including Western civilization...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 16:32:02 -0900
Subject: TRTOOLS enhancements

Having finally got hold of a copy of my work, I'm looking at upgrading the
TRTOOLS code base  - cleaning up the code and adding a few enhancements.

To those who have this set of utilities, I'm looking for suggested
amendments or enhancements.  I'm planning on converting it to Windows -
although I'll continue to maintain a DOS based version if enough people want
it that way.

To those that don't have TRTOOLS, it's a set of simple Traveller utilities
that map sectors (by allegiance, population and tech level), subsectors
(allegiance only) and generate Hard Times and Collapse effects from Second
Survey UEP data.  It's rudimentary when compared to Jim's GALACTIC program,
but as a set of command-line utilities it does the job.

Send me mail if you're interested.  It will be up on my Traveller pages
shortly, along with some sample maps and output.

To Jim (author of the excellent GALACTIC program).  Your effort still makes
mine look ameteurish, but if you are interested in picking over the
(decidedly dodgy in places) code, be my guest.

Thanx,

Mick 

PS some ship names - with obvious cultural bias...

INS Winston Abraham
INS Scott Chisolm
INS Jason Dunstall
IISS Peter Matera
IISS Matthew 'Spider' Burton

heh, heh

Michael Bailey 

'quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.  Ignorance and
prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.'
                             Rush, 'The Witchhunt'


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 00:06:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: How the Imperium REALLY fell...Long and Cranky

>From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>

>This does raise an interesting question.  When we read an account of
>Imperial history, such as the posting which started this off, are we
>reading the Actual God's Own Truth - a step out of the game which
>provides an accurate account - or are we reading the perspective
>on history which the average citizen of the Imperium (and therefore
>most PC's) would have?  

>It strikes me that it would be quite neat for players to go into a
>situation with certain expectations because of what they had
>read, only to find those expectations confounded by reality.

If you're refereeing a game for which background material is published, you
should treat all of the published material as something other than the AGOT,
and decide for yourself what the AGOT should be.  That way, your players
can't figure the universe out before you.

It's just like real life.  We all know that Neil Armstrong was the first man
on the moon because, well, it's a historical event, and he says he did and
Buzz Aldrin says so too, and there isn't much real controversy over it.
None of us actually saw it, however.  I saw something on TV that the
announcer told me was our astronauts on the moon.  I'll never really know,
but the world works ok for me if I assume that that's true.

Likewise, my players all know that Grandfather wiped out all of his Droyne
descendants and retired into a pocket universe to contemplate whatever.
None of them have ever been there; they've just read Secret of the Ancients.
The universe works ok for them if they assume that it's true, until they run
into facts that suggest that it isn't.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 00:06:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: jump grid failure and dialect

>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)

>On 07/17/96 at 12:15 AM,  sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin) said:

>>would lead them to
>>conclude that the jump grid wasn't functioning quite right.  Then
>>they'd have to trace and repair it, or at least mark off the holes
>>where j-space might -- or might not -- be reaching in.  

You remember those submarine movies where the crew are walking around with
boards held in front of them, looking for steam leaks?  I'm thinking of
something like that.  Maybe the board would have a piece of sensitive
electronic equipment on the end -- or a beaked monkey from container DL-22
- -- and when the spacer saw it stop working (or breathing), s/he'd know that
j-space was present.

"Saw it stop" made me think of The Tomorrow File by Lawrence Sanders, which
has some good dialect that could be imported into a science fiction rpg
("em" and "ef" for man and woman; "stop" for die; "love" for money; and many
others).

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: hbill@primenet.com (bill hutchinson)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:41:03 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Meson Screens.

Anyone use meson screens in there TNE game??

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 06:48:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Realism

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 07/17/96 at 11:13 AM,  Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com> said:
> 
> >To wax serious for a moment, the Orion designs were never intended
> >for interplanetary travel, but for interstellar, sublight travel. 
> >They would be illegal because international law prohibits the
> >detonation of nuclear devices in orbit or in space.
> 
> Currently yes, but that treaty (I think it's a test-ban treaty rather
> than an international law) doesn't ban the use of nuclear reactors or
> radioactive isotopes for power in satilites.  I also think the ban is
> limited to a certain number of kilometers/miles above the surface.  I
> almost positive a Nerva style rocket would be OK, both legally and
> environmentally *above* the atmosphere.
> 
> Frankly an Orion style craft wouldn't be something I would want to see
> used except as a last resort anyway.  There are *many* good
> alternatives that don't have the problems of an Orion.


Oh, by all means, I agree completely.  I just always found it to be a neat
idea....BOOOM....OFF WE GO.


> 
> Eris
> 
> -- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:50:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ducted Fan Vehicles and FFS

I was trying to generate some non-gravitic vehicles using FFS and 
discovered that it is basically impossible to create a viable ducted fan 
air-vehicle at less than TL 14 (and even then it is *very* close to the 
limit).  Are the lift and power values on page 75 of FFS correct?  Is 
there some simple trick I'm missing to create such vehicles?

Thanks

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com


------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 07:10:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Realism

On Thursday, July 18, eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:
> Frankly an Orion style craft wouldn't be something I would want to see
> used except as a last resort anyway.

But it's our best hope if a bunch of elephantine alien invaders
begin dropping rocks on us. :-)

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #266
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